Dr. Peter McCullough, joins the Highwire again, this time to discuss the serious problem with the efficacy of the COVID-19 vaccines and how mass vaccination is creating this runaway train of a pandemic. In this episode, Del and Dr. McCullough talk about vaccine efficacy, the delta variant, natural immunity, and asymmetric reporting, among other topics.
Geert Vanden Bossche, PhD, DVM, is an internationally recognized vaccine research expert and developer. He has a long list of companies and organizations he’s worked with on vaccine discovery and preclinical research, including the head of the Vaccine Development Office at the German Centre for Infection Research, GSK, Novartis, Solvay Biologicals, and Bill & Melinda Gates Foundation. Dr Vanden Bossche also coordinated the Ebola vaccine program at GAVI (Global Alliance for Vaccines and Immunization) and contributed to the implementation of an integrated vaccine work plan in collaboration with Global Health Partners (WHO, Bill & Melinda Gates Foundation, CDC, UNICEF), regulators (FDA) and vaccine manufacturers to enable timely deployment or stockpiling of Ebola vaccine candidates.
He is board-certified in Virology and Microbiology, the author of over 30 publications, and inventor of a patent application for universal vaccines. He currently works as an independent vaccine research consultant. In this following video, he shares his perspective on mass vaccination of SARS-CoV2, and highlights the principle of using a prophylactic vaccine in the midst of a pandemic, which is likely to create more viral variants in the process.
Bossche states that the multiple emerging, “much more infectious” viral variants, are already examples of “immune escape” from our ‘innate immunity’, and were most-likely created by the government interventions themselves; the so-called Non-Pharmacological Interventions (NPIs) – i.e. lockdowns and cloth facial coverings. Unofficially, but also more aptly known as the Non-Scientific Interventions.
He believes that:
He states that to “fully escape”, the highly mutable virus, “only needs to add another few mutations in its receptor-binding domain”.
Below is his open letter to the WHO, issued March 6th, 2021.
Open Letter to the World Health Organization
Geert Vanden Bossche, DMV, PhD, independent virologist and vaccine expert, formerly employed at GAVI and The Bill & Melinda Gates Foundation.
To all authorities, scientists and experts around the world, to whom this concerns: the entire world population.
I am all but an antivaxxer. As a scientist I do not usually appeal to any platform of this kind to make a stand on vaccine-related topics. As a dedicated virologist and vaccine expert I only make an exception when health authorities allow vaccines to be administered in ways that threaten public health, most certainly when scientific evidence is being ignored. The present extremely critical situation forces me to spread this emergency call. As the unprecedented extent of human intervention in the Covid-19- pandemic is now at risk of resulting in a global catastrophe without equal, this call cannot sound loudly and strongly enough.
As stated, I am not against vaccination. On the contrary, I can assure you that each of the current vaccines have been designed, developed and manufactured by brilliant and competent scientists. However, this type of prophylactic vaccines are completely inappropriate, and even highly dangerous, when used in mass vaccination campaigns during a viral pandemic. Vaccinologists, scientists and clinicians are blinded by the positive short-term effects in individual patents, but don’t seem to bother about the disastrous consequences for global health. Unless I am scientifically proven wrong, it is difficult to understand how current human interventions will prevent circulating variants from turning into a wild monster.
Racing against the clock, I am completing my scientific manuscript, the publication of which is, unfortunately, likely to come too late given the ever increasing threat from rapidly spreading, highly infectious variants. This is why I decided to already post a summary of my findings as well as my keynote speech at the recent Vaccine Summit in Ohio on LinkedIn. Last Monday, I provided international health organizations, including the WHO, with my analysis of the current pandemic as based on scientifically informed insights in the immune biology of Covid-19. Given the level of emergency, I urged them to consider my concerns and to initiate a debate on the detrimental consequences of further ‘viral immune escape’. For those who are no experts in this field, I am attaching below a more accessible and comprehensible version of the science behind this insidious phenomenon.
While there is no time to spare, I have not received any feedback thus far. Experts and politicians have remained silent while obviously still eager to talk about relaxing infection prevention rules and 'springtime freedom'. My statements are based on nothing else but science. They shall only be contradicted by science. While one can barely make any incorrect scientific statements without being criticized by peers, it seems like the elite of scientists who are currently advising our world leaders prefer to stay silent. Sufficient scientific evidence has been brought to the table. Unfortunately, it remains untouched by those who have the power to act. How long can one ignore the problem when there is at present massive evidence that viral immune escape is now threatening humanity? We can hardly say we didn't know - or were not warned.
In this agonizing letter I put all of my reputation and credibility at stake. I expect from you, guardians of mankind, at least the same. It is of utmost urgency. Do open the debate. By all means: turn the tide!
PUBLIC HEALTH EMERGENCY OF INTERNATIONAL CONCERN
Why mass vaccination amidst a pandemic creates an irrepressible monster
THE key question is: why does nobody seem to bother about viral immune escape? Let me try to explain this by means of a more easily understood phenomenon: Antimicrobial resistance. One can easily extrapolate this scourge to resistance to our self-made ‘antiviral antibiotics’. Indeed, antibodies (Abs) produced by our own immune system can be considered self-made antiviral antibiotics, regardless of whether they are part of our innate immune system (so-called ‘natural’ Abs’) or elicited in response to specific pathogens (resulting in so-called ‘acquired’ Abs). Natural Abs are not germ-specific whereas acquired Abs are specifically directed at the invading pathogen. At birth, our innate immune system is ‘unexperienced’ but well-established. It protects us from a multitude of pathogens, thereby preventing these pathogens from causing disease. As the innate immune system cannot remember the pathogens it encountered (innate immunity has no so-called ‘immunological memory’), we can only continue to rely on it provided we keep it ‘trained’ well enough. Training is achieved by regular exposure to a myriad of environmental agents, including pathogens. However, as we age, we will increasingly face situations where our innate immunity (often called ‘the first line of immune defense’) is not strong enough to halt the pathogen at the portal of entry (mostly mucosal barriers like respiratory or intestinal epithelia). When this happens, the immune system has to rely on more specialized effectors of our immune system (i.e., antigen-specific Abs and T cells) to fight the pathogen. So, as we grow up, we increasingly mount pathogen-specific immunity, including highly specific Abs. As those have stronger affinity for the pathogen (e.g., virus) and can reach high concentrations, they can quite easily outcompete our natural Abs for binding to the pathogen/virus. It is precisely this type of highly specific, high affinity Abs that current Covid-19 vaccines are inducing. Of course, the noble purpose of these Abs is to protect us against Covid-19. So, why then should there be a major concern using these vaccines to fight Covid-19?
Well, similar to the rules applying to classical antimicrobial antibiotics, it is paramount that our self-made ‘antiviral antibiotics’ are made available in sufficient concentration and are tailored at the specific features of our enemy. This is why in case of bacterial disease it is critical to not only chose the right type of antibiotic (based on the results from an antibiogram) but to also take the antibiotic for long enough (according to the prescription). Failure to comply with these requirements is at risk of granting microbes a chance to survive and hence, may cause the disease to fare up. A very similar mechanism may also apply to viruses, especially to viruses that can easily and rapidly mutate (which is, for example, the case with Coronaviruses); when the pressure exerted by the army’s (read: population’s) immune defense starts to threaten viral replication and transmission, the virus will take on another coat so that it can no longer be easily recognized and, therefore, attacked by the host immune system. The virus is now able to escape immunity (so-called: ‘immune escape’). However, the virus can only rely on this strategy provided it still has room enough to replicate. Viruses, in contrast to the majority of bacteria, must rely on living host cells to replicate. This is why the occurrence of ‘escape mutants’ isn’t too worrisome as long as the likelihood for these variants to rapidly find another host is quite remote. However, that’s not particularly the case during a viral pandemic! During a pandemic, the virus is spreading all over the globe with many subjects shedding and transmitting the virus (even including asymptomatic ‘carriers’). The higher the viral load, the higher the likelihood for the virus to bump into subjects who haven’t been infected yet or who were infected but didn’t develop symptoms. Unless they are sufficiently protected by their innate immune defense (through natural Abs), they will catch Covid-19 disease as they cannot rely on other, i.e., acquired Abs. It has been extensively reported, indeed, that the increase in S (spike)-specific Abs in asymptomatically infected people is rather limited and only short-lived. Furthermore, these Abs have not achieved full maturity. The combination of viral infection on a background of suboptimal Ab maturity and concentration enables the virus to select mutations allowing it to escape the immune pressure. The selection of those mutations preferably occurs in the S protein as this is the viral protein that is responsible for viral infectiousness. As the selected mutations endow the virus with increased infectious capacity, it now becomes much easier for the virus to cause severe disease in infected subjects. The more people develop symptomatic disease, the better the virus can secure its propagation and perpetuation (people who get severe disease will shed more virus and for a longer period of time than asymptomatically infected subjects do). Unfortunately enough, the short-lived rise in S-specific Abs does, however, suffice to bypass people’s innate/natural Ab. Those are put out of business as their affinity for S is lower than the affinity of S-specific Abs. This is to say that with an increasing rate of infection in the population, the number of subjects who get infected while experiencing a momentary increase in Specific Abs will steadily increase. Consequently, the number of subjects who get infected while experiencing a momentary decrease in their innate immunity will increase. As a result, a steadily increasing number of subjects will become more susceptible to getting severe disease instead of showing only mild symptoms (i.e., limited to the upper respiratory tract) or no symptoms at all. During a pandemic, especially youngsters will be affected by this evolution as their natural Abs are not yet largely suppressed by a panoply of ‘acquired’, antigen-specific Abs. Natural Abs, and natural immunity in general, play a critical role in protecting us from pathogens as they constitute our first line of immune defense. In contrast to acquired immunity, innate immune responses protect against a large spectrum of pathogens (so don’t compromise or sacrifice your innate immune defense!). Because natural Abs and innate immune cells recognize a diversified spectrum of foreign (i.e., non-self) agents (only some of which have pathogenic potential), it’s important, indeed, to keep it sufficiently exposed to environmental challenges. By keeping the innate immune system (which, unfortunately, has no memory!) TRAINED, we can much more easily resist germs which have real pathogenic potential. It has, for example, been reported and scientifically proven that exposure to other, quite harmless Coronaviruses causing a ‘common cold ’ can provide protection, although short-lived, against Covid-19 and its loyal henchmen (i.e., the more infectious variants).
Suppression of innate immunity, especially in the younger age groups, can, therefore, become very problematic. There can be no doubt that lack of exposure due to stringent containment measures implemented as of the beginning of the pandemic has not been beneficial to keeping people’s innate immune system well trained. As if this was not already heavily compromising innate immune defense in this population segment, there comes yet another force into play that will dramatically enhance morbidity and mortality rates in the younger age groups: MASS VACCINATION of the ELDERLY. The more extensively the later age group will be vaccinated and hence, protected, the more the virus is forced to continue causing disease in younger age groups. This is only going to be possible provided it escapes to the S-specific Abs that are momentarily raised in previously asymptomatically infected subjects. If the virus manages to do so, it can benefit from the (momentarily) suppressed innate immunity, thereby causing disease in an increasing number of these subjects and ensuring its own propagation. Selecting targeted mutations in the S protein is, therefore, the way to go in order for the virus to enhance its infectiousness in candidates that are prone to getting the disease because of a transient weakness of their innate immune defense.
But in the meantime, we’re also facing a huge problem in vaccinated people as they’re now more and more confronted with infectious variants displaying a type of S protein that is increasingly different from Author: Geert Vanden Bossche, DVM, PhD (March 6, 2021) – https://www.linkedin.com/in/geertvandenbossche/ the S edition comprised with the vaccine (the later edition originates from the original, much less infectious strain at the beginning of the pandemic). The more variants become infectious (i.e., as a result of blocking access of the virus to the vaccinated segment of the population), the less vaccinal Abs will protect. Already now, lack of protection is leading to viral shedding and transmission in vaccine recipients who are exposed to these more infectious strains (which, by the way, increasingly dominate the field). This is how we are currently turning vaccines into asymptomatic carriers shedding infectious variants.
At some point, in a likely very near future, it’s going to become more profitable (in term of ‘return on selection investment’) for the virus to just add another few mutations (maybe just one or two) to the S protein of viral variants (already endowed with multiple mutations enhancing infectiousness) in an attempt to further strengthen its binding to the receptor (ACE-2) expressed on the surface of permissive epithelial cells. This will now allow the new variant to outcompete vaccinal Abs for binding to the ACE receptor. This is to say that at this stage, it would only take very few additional targeted mutations within the viral receptor-binding domain to fully resist specific anti-Covid-19 Abs, regardless whether the later are elicited by the vaccine or by natural infection. At that stage, the virus will, indeed, have managed to gain access to a huge reservoir of subjects who have now become highly susceptible to disease as their S-specific Abs have now become useless in terms of protection but still manage to provide for long-lived suppression of their innate immunity (i.e., natural infection, and especially vaccination, elicit relatively long-lived specific Ab titers). The susceptible reservoir comprises both, vaccinated people and those who’re left with sufficient S-specific Abs due to previous Covid-19 disease). So, MISSION ACCOMPLISHED for Covid-19 but a DISASTROUS SITUATION for all vaccinated subjects and Covid-19 seropositive people as they’ve now lost both, their acquired and innate immune defense against Covid-19 (while highly infectious strains are circulating!). That’s ‘one small step for the virus, one giant catastrophe for mankind’, which is to say that we’ll have whipped up the virus in the younger population up to a level that it now takes little effort for Covid-19 to transform into a highly infectious virus that completely ignores both the innate arm of our immune system as well as the adaptive/acquired one (regardless of whether the acquired Abs resulted from vaccination or natural infection). The effort for the virus is now becoming even more negligible given that many vaccine recipients are now exposed to highly infectious viral variants while having received only a single shot of the vaccine. Hence, they are endowed with Abs that have not yet acquired optimal functionality. There is no need to explain that this is just going to further enhance immune escape. Basically, we’ll very soon be confronted with a super-infectious virus that completely resists our most precious defense mechanism: The human immune system. From all of the above, it’s becoming increasingly difficult to imagine how the consequences of the extensive and erroneous human intervention in this pandemic are not going to wipe out large parts of our human population. One could only think of very few other strategies to achieve the same level of efficiency in turning a relatively harmless virus into a bioweapon of mass destruction. It’s certainly also worth mentioning that mutations in the S protein (i.e., exactly the same protein that is subject to selection of escape mutations) are known to enable Coronaviruses to cross species barriers. This is to say that the risk that vaccine-mediated immune escape could allow the virus to jump to other animal species, especially industrial livestock (e.g., pig and poultry farms), is not negligible. These species are already known to host several different Coronaviruses and are usually housed in farms with high stocking density. Similar to the situation with influenza virus, these species could than serve as an additional reservoir for SARS-COVID-2 virus.
As pathogens have co-evolved with the host immune system, natural pandemics of acute self-limiting viral infections have been shaped such as to take a toll on human lives that is not higher than strictly required. Due to human intervention, the course of this pandemic has been thoroughly disturbed as of the very beginning. Widespread and stringent infection prevention measures combined with mass vaccination campaigns using inadequate vaccines will undoubtedly lead to a situation where the pandemic is getting increasingly ‘out of control’.
Paradoxically, the only intervention that could offer a perspective to end this pandemic (other than to let it run its disastrous course) is …VACCINATION. Of course, the type of vaccines to be used would be completely different of conventional vaccines in that they’re not inducing the usual suspects, i.e., B and T cells, but NK cells. There is, indeed, compelling scientific evidence that these cells play a key role in facilitating complete elimination of Covid-19 at an early stage of infection in symptomatically infected subjects. NK cells are part of the cellular arm of our innate immune system and, alike natural Abs, they are capable of recognizing and attacking a broad and diversified spectrum of pathogenic agents. There is a sound scientific rationale to assume that it is possible to ‘prime’ NK cells in ways for them to recognize and kill Coronaviruses at large (include all their variants) at an early stage of infection. NK cells have increasingly been described to be endowed with the capacity to acquire immunological memory. By educating these cells in ways that enable them to durably recognize and target Coronavirus-infected cells, our immune system could be perfectly armed for a targeted attack to the universe of Coronaviruses prior to exposure. As NK cell-based immune defense provides sterilizing immunity and allows for broadspectrum and fast protection, it is reasonable to assume that harnessing our innate immune cells is going to be the only type of human intervention left to halt the dangerous spread of highly infectious Covid-19 variants.
If we, human beings, are committed to perpetuating our species, we have no choice left but to eradicate these highly infectious viral variants. This will, indeed, require large vaccination campaigns. However, NK cell-based vaccines will primarily enable our natural immunity to be better prepared (memory!) and to induce herd immunity (which is exactly the opposite of what current Covid-19 vaccines do as those increasingly turn vaccine recipients into asymptomatic carriers who are shedding virus). So, there is not one second left for gears to be switched and to replace the current killer vaccines by life-saving vaccines.
I am appealing to the WHO and all stakeholders involved, no mater their conviction, to immediately declare such acton as THE SINGLE MOST IMPORTANT PUBLIC HEALTH EMERGENCY OF INTERNATIONAL CONCERN.
Working with top experts, reviewing university and hospital databases, and scouring over an additional 50 peer-reviewed studies... what I discovered nearly left me speechless.
What I happened upon was so surprising that I decided to examine the entire history of mask usage in medicine and study the peer-reviewed evidence that's been gathered since their inception.
There was so much data available that I was even more speechless. In fact, the outcomes of some of these studies was so shocking that I couldn't believe public health officials weren't talking about them.
So, I put a team together, collected all of the data, and put it all together for you here in this video.
Additionally, you can access all of the studies at themodelhealthshow(dot)com/maskfacts or just hit the link in my bio.
This is truly one of the most important moments in human history. It’s time to take action to get this information into the hands of our communities. And it’s time for us to stand up and change our world for the better!
Rhonda: Hello everyone. I'm here in...well I guess it's not really Amsterdam. It's somewhere close to Amsterdam. What's the name?
Wim: It's Stroe.
Rhonda: Stroe. I'm sitting here with someone I'm very excited to be having a conversation with, not only because he's extremely charismatic and passionate, but also because he's into the cold. And as you guys all know that I'm very interested in changes in temperature on human physiology, on brain function... His name is Wim Hof. You may have heard of him through the Tim Ferriss interview recently, or through the VICE documentary. He holds 26 different world records. Maybe you can tell us more about that?
Wim: I have 26. Different disciplines, like climbing Mount Everest in your shorts, or climbing Kilimanjaro in record times, or hanging by one finger in the air, or 1 hour, 53 minutes in direct contact with the ice, or swimming beneath a thick ice cap under the ice, or running marathons. Not been trained to do so, but then run a marathon, because, and a runners going to tell you, about breathing techniques. Very, very revolutionary. But tell.
Rhonda: Well, I want to ask you, Wim, I mean, I've been very interested in the effects of changing temperature on human physiology. Specifically, I've been interested in the sauna for a while, mostly because I sort of serendipitously started using the sauna when I was in graduate school, which is a very stressful time for me. And there was a sauna across the street from where I lived. And so I started using the sauna every morning before I would going to the lab and do my experiments. And I noticed that I felt really good after, and I was able to handle stress better. So I started to figure out, why is this? And so I started diving into the science and I'm trying to understand how it affects the brain. But how did you become interested in sitting in the ice or taking ice baths?
Wim: I thought there was more than meets the eye. There is more into all the system. And I was like grown up in a big family, but my, you know, school results were not so big. And everybody was into, "Hey, you have to become a doctor. You have to become this. You have to become that. Otherwise, you are lower in the system." And I thought, "No. What I feel is okay. What I feel, it's not what really I want." So I began to wonder. I began to look. Hundreds of books in psychology, philosophy. Though I was, by school system, narrowed down as being, "Yeah, you can be a carpenter. You can be a painter." And I said, "No." I knew there was something different. So I went into books. At my age of 12, I began to read about psychology already. Going into Hinduism and Buddhism and all these religions and traditions and cultures, and began to learn languages, different languages, by my own. Not by the schooler system.
Rhonda: By your own interest and passion for it.
Wim: Yes. And when I reached the age of 17, then my head was full up with all these philosophies and philosophying about it, all the traditions and cultures and the languages and everything, and all I did was karate and kung fu and yoga. I could do it all. All. But it still did not satisfy the depth of which I wanted to reach inside, which my mind, in the start, was looking for. And a Sunday morning, I was wandering throughout the park, and I saw this thin layer of ice on the water, and it attracted me. And I thought, I got to go in. I was looking around, nobody was there because, Sunday morning, everybody is working, you know, they have their tranquility...tranquilidad in Spanish. The have to...you know, they want to have a easy time in bed or something. So I could...take off my clothes and went in, and it just, in one minute, I felt the sense I'm really going deep in. This is really responding to the soul searching I did for many years before, and about that what I think is there is more than meets the eye, I found it at that moment. And I came out, and I felt great. And from there it all started to... Whenever you feel great, you come back. So the other day, I came back, and then once again, once again. And I noticed that the pattern of the breathing changed. It changed, and it brought me more oxygen inside the body, being able to withstand the cold, say, for 20 minutes, ice cold, huh? Ice water, and then stay for five to seven minutes under the water. And it brought me a sense of tremendous power within. A control. I was looking for that. That's the way it all began.
From there, I began to do my own study of life itself. And yes, it brought me to all kinds of challenges. Staying in shorts, no t-shirt, no nothing, just in freezing temperatures all night out. The human potential of his physiology is far beyond than what we exercise right now. And because of this comfort zone way of thinking, we think we can control nature, but we do not control the inner power anymore, which is the physiology, which goes far deeper than we exercise right now, which causes all these diseases, all the depressions, all the lack of oxygen. The right chemistry in the body is not there, causing all these ailments. And we have no control. And yeah, right now we have found the techniques, and we brought it back to the laboratory setting, showed that everybody is able just to tap into their deepest levels of their physiology, which is the autonomic nervous system, related to the immune system, related to the endocrine system, which means the immune system is the health. The layers of the immune system after millions of years are really perfect, but if you do not tap in, you're not making use of these immune systems. Another one is the endocrine system about glands, the hormones. If you don't feel good, if you don't feel happy, make some happy hormones working. If you don't feel strong, you feel weak and...make some strong hormones working. We have shown people lying in bed producing, it's all science now, producing within a half hour, more adrenaline than somebody in fear going for a bungee jump. Comparative study of blood results. So the endocrine system, the immune system, just in a couple of days, we are able to access, every individual in the world therein. And we got to spread this news, because it makes us happy, strong and healthy. And that's what we want. And now you come and you interview me, and you're a bright girl. You're a bright woman. Help me to bring this to the world. That's what we do. It's good, it's for everybody, that's what we're doing.
Rhonda: Yes. So you're talking about these couple of studies that were published, but before jumping into that, you've got this technique that you're referring to where you're getting in the cold, and you mention that your breathing, you noticed when you first were doing it, your breathing changed.
Rhonda: I'm just curious, is that how you decided to harness the breathing techniques? Was it something that you'd noticed you did automatically when you were in the cold? Or how did you couple those two together?
Wim: In the cold, if you go in the cold, and it feels good, because you feel, there's no thinking involved, you just feel, and just feeling is tremendous, nice. It's okay. It's strong. It's a strong feeling. That is what the reaction is of the cold. Okay, but then your breathing will change because it's naturally already there. And to withstand cold impact, which is of course coming in, it needs oxygen, combustion. It needs oxygen to go round. So you need oxygen, in a natural way, in every cell. But as we breathe shallow in our conditioned minds and in the comfort zone, etc., it doesn't get in all the cells, the right amount of oxygen. But the cold really forces you to breathe the natural way, which is very much more profound, bringing in oxygen in all the cells, taking up the pH level, and then you don't feel the pain, you don't feel the cold, you get control over them. The neurotransmitters in the body, they go fast and they listen to your will. They listen to what you have to say. That's the way nature built us to be. So I learned it in the cold by feeling, because I knew that there was no book. The book was me. The book was the interaction with the nature.
Rhonda: No, it's really cool. I was speaking with a mutual friend of ours yesterday, Peter Capel, who was explaining some of the science behind how the breathing techniques that you're referring to that you use when you're doing this hyperventilation. Do you want to explain it?
Wim: Hyperventilation is over...it gets to you. What we do...we go controlled to the level where hyperventilation occurs, but we do it controlled. So there is a neural activity contact with the brain and the way we get in oxygen to the right pH levels and then that's... Hyperventilation is a sort of a limited indication for now. But we are not suffering from hyperventilation, we make use of whatever goes on in hyperventilation to get a degree of mastery or a certain level of trance within our physiology, within our chemistry, and we do it right.
Rhonda: Okay, yeah. So your controlled breathing technique, what it ends up doing at the physiological level is it is decreasing the carbon dioxide level in the blood, which then, as you mentioned, has a response in raising the pH, which is usually very hard to do, you know? Normal blood pH is around 7.35, 7.4.
Wim: If that's the case, 7.3, 7.4, then everybody's okay. But everybody is actually suffering from lower degrees of pH. That's our problem in this society, because we build up a lack of oxygen throughout the daily life, and that's why we get lower pH levels, and from there all the problems of autoimmune diseases and probably cancer, etc. I don't want to mention all these words, but it's logical. If you go with a car, and you got petrol, diesel or gas, you put in sugar, you change the chemistry and you are not able to drive anymore. The same works with the body. If we get too long a time, too low pH degree, the auto, which is Greek for self, our physiology, is not working anymore, and then we get these chronic diseases and the autoimmune diseases. It's logic.
Rhonda: What's interesting to me is that there's the pain receptor, the acid sensing receptor that is coupled to the pain signalling pathway, and so when you are able to raise your pH by this brilliant technique, and lowering the carbon dioxide to 7.75 or 7.8...
Wim: Eight, average, last study.
Wim: It's still not published, but I can say...
Rhonda: Well, in the published study, it was about 7.75 or 7.8, which is still high. And that's too...that's a high enough pH to deactivate the receptor that senses the acidity, and therefore it is unable to send signals to the other pain receptors.
Wim: Wow, great. Science, I love this shit. If you get it to 7.6, the trimerization goes into monomer, so the pain signal is composed by three...
Rhonda: Receptors. They [inaudible 00:15:38].
Wim: ...receptors, then two get away because there's just no signal on them. I loved your...
Rhonda: And that's why you can sit in the pool.
Wim: And then it goes away. And there is no pain. That's the way we master our own body again. That's the way nature built us to be able to do.
Rhonda: Well, so that's just one interesting point about your breathing and cold...
Wim: Yeah whatever that mattered, I didn't got it out of books, I got it out of nature.
Rhonda: No, it's so cool. Right, yeah.
Wim: I brought it back to the laboratory, it's in the books right now, in American books, even, the Future of Biology and Medical Students, it's a full chapter, 'Testing the Ice Man', it's called, and it's not anymore about me. It's about a comparative study with 12 people who did the method just within 4 days, and it wasn't even really a puritan training, which I did with them, to make them able to go and tap into the autonomic nervous system, and the immune system, and get endotoxin injected, and have it controlled within a quarter of hour. That's what...
Rhonda: It's amazing.
Wim: Hundred percent. Hundred percent. Within four days. All this "Oh, so many years," and this, and that, and all they say, you know, people who are very puritan take years about it, "Acidic, alkaline, what we got to do," and always miming about it... Just in four days. And in the nights, in the evenings, we drank beer, and we had guitar playing, and we had some relaxation going on. And during the day, they were fully committed, and the fourth day, they were with me without prior experience, in the cold, at minus 10 Celsius. I mean, that's below freezing point. Celsius, Fahrenheit, you know, it's really below freezing point. They began at the foot of a mountain, and like hours it took to get to the summit in Poland-Czechia border in the wintertime, and all in shorts, like three hours or three and a half hours, and it was minus 27 at the top, and they were still... We were doing the Harlem Shake on top. Then I knew these guys, after four days of training, without prior experience, in the cold, having a real good time in the night, and during the day, go again. Four days later, and I knew it at the summit, they are...these people are ready. These people are back in their natural state of their physiology. They have control by the mind over their body the way a endotoxin experiment or a bacteria gets injected, and within a quarter of a hour they will have complete dominion of the bacteria. And that in spite of the others, who had no instructions, they suffered from three to six hours uncontrolled shivering, headaches and overall agony and all that. So we got to go back to nature. Our nature. The inner nature, the inner mechanisms. And it's not so difficult. It's very easy, actually. Very simple.
Rhonda: So I want to dive a little more into the science, but I have a question. So after the 4 days of training, these 12 individuals were completely untrained, they did the 4 days of training. How soon after that did they have the endotoxin injected?
Wim: Four days later.
Rhonda: Four days later. So they did training for four days and then they had the... So they weren't...were they doing any of the breathing techniques or anything right before the endotoxin?
Wim: Right before the endotoxin they did this breathing...
Rhonda: The breathing.
Wim: ...and that made them able to go into the brainstem, which is the cause of adrenaline, direct adrenaline. And in a way, comparatively, they compared it with studies wherein people go into a...in fear, first time, going into a bungee jump. And these guys were just lying in bed and producing more adrenaline. That means control within, you know, controlled stress hormone like adrenaline, epinephrine and all this, that means it works like medicine. It ignites the immune system, "Go and reset and do what you got to do." And what we are able to do is to fend ourselves off from disease, like animals, like mammals. I don't see any psychiatric asylums in nature. I don't see pharmacies in nature, no hospitals. But they still live and they run and they are fast and they go and they live and they enjoy life. Even though there are predators and everything, it's a beautiful cycle. But we thought we are better. We dominate nature. But we don't. We have to go back and this mammalistic brain, the limbic system, the brainstem, if it is in order once again, we become happy, strong and healthy.
Rhonda: So what you're saying is so interesting because the breathing techniques you're talking about does increase the epinephrine and the adrenaline, which has been shown to have an anti-inflammatory effect. So that is able to secrete these anti-inflammatory cytokines that prevent the immune system from going crazy. So in the study where these 12 individuals did your method, I found it interesting that they were injected with endotoxin, which is like, by the way, it's something that humans are constantly exposed to small amounts of, because we have it in our gut, and it's a driver of the inflammation, it's a driver of aging, it's a driver of cardiovascular disease, everything aging-related. All aging related...
Wim: Cardiovascular diseases.
Rhonda: ...diseases come back to endotoxin.
Wim: Look what you mentioned. How big it is.
Rhonda: Yeah, it's a big thing. So what happened, you know, physiologically what's happening with the breathing techniques, specifically, which I'm calling it hyperventilation, it's controlled, you know, but for simplistic reasons, when you hyperventilate, you increase the adrenaline and the epinephrine, and that has a profound effect on anti-inflammatory. And so these individuals that were doing your method versus the control when they were injected with the endotoxin, their immune response was activated. But immediately, they had this anti-inflammatory cytokines coming out and quieting the immune system from not going crazy, and that's why they were not experiencing all the negative effects of when you have your immune system going overactive, it's inflammation. And then you get the pain, you get, you know, nausea, and things that you were describing. That didn't happen.
Wim: We got so many cases with rheumatic arthritis, atherosclerosis, we are doing... It's going to come, the studies, and the disease of Lyme, and the disease of Crohn, colitis and asthma, all kinds of... And it's all the same cause. And we are now very able to tap into that very direct...
Wim: ...but we have to show this scientifically. And I got so many cases of people using medicine for like 20 years and not using them anymore, there's no need anymore, in all these autoimmune diseases, about the inflammation, the cytokine production and all that, they control it. They control the pain. They control all the symptoms, and they don't need the medicines anymore. And we want to prove this by science, because I think there is a big industry behind...wants us to take medicine. So how much is the interest to look into a method which is natural, doesn't cost anything, anybody is able to do, and yeah, that's what we do. So that's what we do right now.
Maybe it's not so smart of me to say this or to mention this, but I have no fear. I have no fear. I think this scientific discovery that we are able to tap into the autonomic nervous system and relate it to the immune system and the endocrine system, brings back the belief to every person in the world that we are able to do so much more within our bodies. We lost this belief that we are unable to become happy, strong and healthy because we got lost in this sort of system, and we got confused, because then you get dependency. And now we turn around dependency and the disbelief and the discomfort into the ability by a natural method to bring about this consciousness of being happy and strong and healthy. That's my own thing. And we bring it about by scientific based evidence. And so there is no speculation going on.
And I love your study, I love your way of seeing things. That's good. So all what we do I think it's good, because what do we want for our children? That's love. And love, I think, is composed of what do you want for your child? Happiness, strength and health. That is what I want for my child. Is that love? Yes. That's love. But now, we will determine that by scientific scrutiny, by scientific results, evidence and that's it. And I call it crazy monkey sometimes. And we are making a song about it, and the crazy monkey is the brainstem. The brainstem, the primitive brain, is very able to direct... It's about to fight, to flight, food, to fuck and to freeze. Very primitive. But it's like a reptilian brain. It only reacts. It doesn't think. But because of our thinking, we are so dominated by our thinking, it doesn't get the right blood flow. And that heavier in the brainstem all to...resides the pineal gland, hypothalamus, pituitary gland, amygdala, which is the emotion. And it's all there and doesn't get sufficient blood flow. So if something happens, trauma or disease or danger, we don't know how to deal because there's not sufficient blood flow because this crazy monkey is all the time going around and actually wants to get and tap in back into its roots feeling okay. The crazy monkey. Eh, wow, it’s nice, huh?
Rhonda: Do you think that part of the effects of meditation in general, because a lot of meditation has focuses on breathing and breathing, do you think that the breathing itself may be responsible for some of those positive effects: meditation, respiration?
Wim: Sure. If you go in very... Capel, Professor Capel who was also talking about this, about the neocortex and the hypothalamus, which is the surface of the brain, and the hypothalamus is the brainstem, more or less, and we lose the contact, but it's all the time the neocortex going on with the world, like, "Hey, I got to do this. I got to do this." Then the blood flow will go to this, and it creates a sympathetic nervous system activity all the time. But to create new energy, it happens only, like a cow, it's going to sit down, it's going to chew on its grass, and this way, if these chemical processes are able...if she runs, these chemical processes to make milk are not able to happen. So we got a same process. We are mammals too. So in the cell, it needs peace. We need to sit down, relax, and to make new energy in the cell. But as we are always going on in the brain, the sympathetic nervous system is going on and on and on, and it only takes energy. And because we don't know how to get into the parasympathetic nervous system, which enables the cell production to make new energy, we are not able to disconnect therefrom. Therefore we get no new energy. And that's why life is so depressing, or too much going on, and you got to go all the time.
So now to get into this part by breathing, vipassana meditation and all that, every person [SP] and all these techniques, I worked them out. I wrote a manuscript on yoga as a technique, but so long a time it takes to get into it. And now we are doing a study with psychiatrical research, we are doing, to compare it with mindfulness. Mindfulness is actually a Western answer on the Asian meditation forms of the East, and it's called mindfulness. But still it takes such a long time to tap into the brain the right way to disconnect from the sympathetic nervous system activity course by the neocortex to get into the limbic system which is connected to the parasympathetic nervous system, which creates energy, which gives space, which doesn't give anxiety, and all that. So if you go into this breathing, profoundly, then there is no danger. There is no danger. You don't need to be. And if it takes just four minutes or five minutes, then it will disconnect from the neocortex, which is the sympathetic nervous system activity, it shuts down. There's no blood flow anymore going toward it, and it goes down, and you feel relaxed. Okay, oh, nice, nice. Now, it takes time, because some people are so stubborn within the sympathetic nervous system related to the neocortex. It goes on and on and on and on and it doesn't stop. So what we do now with this breathing technique, cut down, disconnect completely. The conditioned breathing pattern which is providing the oxygen, the blood flow to the neocortex, we cut it down. And you know what they saw? After one and a half minute of retention, that's refraining from breath.
Rhonda: It's like holding in?
Wim: After exhalation, no air in the lungs. That means [inaudible 00:33:02]. No oxygen here. And we got the pH degree. We got it completely up. So nothing happens. The body is completely provided. But then we fooled the brain. We fooled the brain. It takes one and a half minutes for the brain to get back, because we oxygenize the body so much, we get the carbon dioxide out, but the pH level we get up. Oxygen gets so much freed. Now for the first time, deep breathing, it gets to work all the cells. And then after one and a half minute, it gets down to 100% because what I know its science doesn't yet know. We are able to oxygenize the body more than 100%. These are the devices. They took up abstract devices. They... This is 100 percent... This 30% people die. You know what I show? I took the device, I took it with this finger. It's one of the strongest fingers ever. I was hanging in the wintertime at one finger between two balloons. And for 23, 50.4 seconds. Yes. That's that. They got these oximeters. And it's showing your heartbeat and your saturation in your blood. After one...everybody, it will show in the physiology of everybody, after one and a half minute, it then begins again, 100%, 90%, 80%, 70%, 60%, 50%, where people normally die, 40%, 30%, and the device goes 0, 0, 0. There's no measuring anymore.
Rhonda: On you?
Wim: Not on me only anymore, everybody who took part in the study in four days.
Rhonda: I saw the oxygen saturation went down by 50% in everyone, right?
Wim: Yes, yes. That's the average. But some guys just went out completely off the device.
Rhonda: So individual variation between the people. Some of them went down...
Wim: Yeah, a little bit, but everybody goes down. Like normally it's mortal. You are dying. If you would be acidic, you would die at that moment. So that's the way we trick the mind, because the reptilian mode is just reactive, to crawl, to freeze, to fuck, to flight, and to food. That's what a reptilian does. That's not us. We got a mind. But we don't know how to tap into this mode. Now we know. And this brings about the connection between all the parts of the brain, which also concerns disease.
Wim: And depression. The glands. The pineal gland. The pituitary gland and the hypothalamus, and we got it. So it's so simple and so effective.
Rhonda: Yeah, for the relevance, for diseases. So, if you just think about the cold itself increases norepinephrine, which is used to treat ADHD, it's used to treat depression, they're giving norepinephrine reuptake inhibitors to treat that, which have all sorts of side effects. And then the breathing increases the epinephrine, which then causes all the anti-inflammatory response.
Wim: Say that again. It's very interesting. I love that you say it, girl.
Rhonda: So then couple the two, you're talking about increasing the focus, the attention...
Rhonda: Epinephrine. The norepinephrine is increased by the cold, and then the breathing, the controlled breathing, increases the epinephrine and the adrenaline, which then cause all the anti-inflammatory response and then it decreases carbon dioxide, which then stops the pain.
Wim: It is science. No speculation.
Rhonda: Yeah. So what you're talking about potentially, and this is what I'm interested in, is treating possibly depression, anxiety, OCD, inflammation...
Wim: Look how serious this is. This is, and I wanted science to back it up. Please help me with the scientific research. We got it, but we need to prove it.
Rhonda: You're doing a pretty good job. Right now, you've got two pretty good publications, one of them in the PNAS journal, which is a very nice journal. It's a great paper, you know, I read it two times. I think that you're on the right path to using science and harnessing the power of science to show the physiological changes, the brain changes that are occurring through the use of the cold, you know, shock, through the use of these breathing techniques and [inaudible 00:38:25].
Wim: You're very humble. She's a humble girl. Nice.
Rhonda: Thank you. I'm curious, like what made you decide to turn to the science? Just your curiosity? You got that scientific sort of mind where you wanted to understand?
Wim: Recognition, science, yeah, I already knew it 25 years ago that the autonomic nervous can be influenced, and the immune system, but everybody told me I was crazy. Yeah, I'm crazy, about my life,and about my wife. That's okay. But for the rest, no. I know, because of nature, of cold and all that. And I can think. I am able to deduct and to make conversation, like with you right now. I can recognize what you say. I can recognize where we are, what we do and what we need to do even more. So that's the way I began. And I began, of course, when I had the chance. And that was in New York. "Wow, now we're getting something."
Rhonda: In New York.
Wim: New York, Manhasset.
Wim: Yeah, Manhattan. I did a record over there standing in the ice during the winter, in January in front of the Museum of Himalayan Arts in New York, and I did like 1 hour 13 minutes then. Now it's 1 hour 53 minutes. Doesn't matter, you know? Every time, a little minute to hold on, it's being invited [SP] all over the world. "Don't try it." But I did it. And then the other day, I went to the Feinstein institute in Manhasset, New York, which is under the supervision of Doctor Kevin Tracey, which is a microbiologist, and he is an authority in the field. He is also in the board of Nobel Prize winners for medical research. So you should give me. By the way, making jokes, you know? But the real serious thing is that he then saw me influencing the vagus nerve. And not a little bit. And he saw it compared to a whole lot of test subjects before, and I was the first one who was doing this, actually. There's a whole story behind it, as he'd read, but then he taught me... We were going to do all kinds of research, comparative studies, because if this would be...if I would be able to pass it over to a group of persons, that would be huge consequences for human mankind.
A month later, I did not hear any contact anymore, and I found out they are quite sponsored by pharmaceuticals. But that's okay. That's okay. Everybody needs money to go around and blah, blah, blah, etc. But years later, I had this opportunity to show in the Radboud University here in Holland, in a physiological experiment, cold experiment, that I was able to, you know, go into 80 minutes immersion into the cold, direct cold, ice cubes and water and all that, and stay 80 minutes, and raise my core body temperature whilst doing. And they had blood retrieving from me, and they exposed it, ex vivo, without me, in a laboratory setting, and they saw 100% cytokine suppression. A hundred percent, eh? And then later, yeah, of course, they began to become interested by intensive care department, "Do you want to be injected, do you want to be part of an experiment like that?" And then they saw this, and then I said, "Yes, but maybe I could do it." And all these people didn't do it. All these hundreds of people who were not able to do it, and now I'm able to do it with such a big difference. But I say, "It's not because I'm the ice man. Anybody can do it." So you can do it, anybody can do it. Even the dog can do it. But she is out there calling for us. Let her in. She said, "I'm taking part of this interview." It's all about love.
Rhonda: So that's how it came... the endotoxins, they came to be.
Rhonda: Because that has, like I said, has huge, huge clinical relevance.
Wim: Sit down. Sit down. Sit down. Sorry. My little cytokine. Sit down. Doesn't do anything. I suppress the cytokine production in my body, but I cannot control my dog. It's all about the love, you know?
Rhonda: Absolutely. Very, very cool. I would love to see, you know, this, like I said, potentially be used to help treat depression, to help treat a lot of...
Wim: Oh yes, depression. It's my next thing.
Wim: My wife died because of being schizophrenic, as they say. Like no control. And I saw there was no control. I lost her, and I have four kids with her. That's the way I began to have interest in scientific studies to show we are able to do so much more. It's in there. It's a soul search. And that's the way I began.
Rhonda: Do you think that Holland may be open to this type of treatment? And the reason I say this is because, just a couple of days ago, I was at the Van Gogh Museum, you know, I'm a tourist, and going to the Van Gogh Museum, and we're all kind of drawn to van Gogh, because he has got this dark story, he cut off his ear, he killed himself.
Wim: Same thing. Same thing.
Rhonda: Yeah. And as I was reading through...you know, looking at his paintings and reading through, you know, the history behind it...
Wim: Emotions and all that, yeah. It's real.
Rhonda: Yeah. Well then, what happened was he went to this sort of psychiatric hospital, and I thought immediately, "Oh, they probably put him on drugs." I mean, that's what I thought. As I was reading, it said, "No, his prescription was two cold baths a day."
Wim: Look at that.
Rhonda: And that... I was... I mean, I looked at my husband, and I was like, "Are you kidding me? Is this really, you know..." So is that something you think that maybe... You know, because this was in the Netherlands.
Wim: Yes. Actually it was in the south of France with van Gogh.
Rhonda: Oh, was it in the south of France? I thought you said, oh, okay...
Wim: Yeah, but he was so depressed, and the light has got a lot of influence on depression. Melatonin, serotonin, the hormone production, etc. So he went to the south of France finally, and then Arles, somewhere south of France, he got into this psychiatric asylum, but they didn't know as well. Because the cold brings about the alarm cells in the body, which suppresses the cytokine production direct, but then the breathing even does more.
Rhonda: Yeah. Norepinephrine is increased by the cold, and it suppresses the cytokine production, but the epinephrine from the breathing does it even more robust. But I was so curious that back in the late 1800s they were saying cold bath. Why not now?
Wim: You are the first one to tell me he took a bath.
Rhonda: Twice a day.
Wim: I've lost my respect for Vincent van Gogh, who was a crazy motherfucker. I'm sorry.
Rhonda: It's okay.
Wim: We cannot say that. But he cut off his ear, and then shot himself. And my wife, you're like 200 years later, jumped from 8th floor, having 4 children. I'm working with the children right now, and we're having a great company, and we got a lot of happiness and all that, but those days we had a lot of discomfort and no power and being dependent on all these systems, and that's why I say, sorry about the F word, but it's the F word, these systems, F these systems, because we are going to do something about this. And this time we're going to bring back the belief, but also the real chemical connection within the body and the brain toward all the people. And that's regarding depression, any type of mental disorder or physical disorder.
Rhonda: Yeah. Inflammatory disorders in general.
Wim: Yes, inflammation. Cytokine production. Are we able to tap into that? Yes. Are we able to tap into the vagus nerve? Yes. Are we able to tap into the autonomic nervous system? Yes. I'm sorry, yes.
Rhonda: Please keep doing what you're doing, and, you know, it's awesome, your passion, your energy and what you're doing, I respect.
Wim: And likewise.
Rhonda: Thank you.
Wim: I respect your work, which is very good, and it is really needed.
Rhonda: So if people want to find out about Wim Hof?
Wim: Just go to innerfire.nl, you know, www, all these stripes, yeah, like that, .innerfire.nl. NL is Netherlands.
Rhonda: Uh-huh. Inner fire, like I-N-N-E-R F-I-R-E?
Wim: Yes. Inner fire is about, you know, "the cold is cold." But if you go into the cold, and this fire comes up, you feel good. That's the inner fire all about. So www.innerfire.nl, NL is the Netherlands. NL, you know, Netherlands.
Rhonda: And that's it?
Wim: That's it. And the rest, I don't know. I don't know nothing about Twitter and Witter and Batter and Letter, I don't know.
Rhonda: Yeah, and you've got like a training technique?
Wim: Oh yeah, we got like online videos and we got a free video course as well.
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